User talk:Penamesolen

Concerning arte name links and related formatting
(I'm not exactly used to greeting people, but the last person I commented to made a big deal out of it, so I'll leave it at that with the "welcome" template. =P )

I notice that you edited Richter's artes list page so most of his attacks (the ones without known localized names) have had their links removed. While this would make sense normally since Richter uses attacks that are exclusive to himself (and therefore all of them have no articles written yet), I would prefer to maintain the links for the sake of consistency with other similar pages.

I also noticed that Emil's artes page was edited in the same way yesterday, so I should use that as an example of what I have in mind. Right now, the listed artes on his page show a mix of Japanese and English versions. I wish to have only the confirmed localized names displayed, and all others displayed as their Japanese romanizations if they are not confirmed, everything with links to their associated articles (even though quite a handful of them don't exist yet). With all honesty, this is not what I intended at the beginning, since another editor added these confirmed names as the links - instead, I had planned to have even the confirmed names listed below all other arte name translation info, like I did with Vesperia's data before the localized release, since the articles are tagged to emphasize that this game has not been released in English yet, so all data should follow the Japanese release and linked accordingly.

Either way, it's better to keep the links, since I make it a point to provide redirects for the Japanese arte names so the correct English pages are referenced. If we remove the links, this kind of referencing is lost, and in games that have not received any translations whatsoever such as Tales of Innocence, their associated artes lists would not have a way to provide details like comparisons to other games, ie. Spada's Senkuureppa, which does have an article for the attack. Removing the link removes the article from view, and changing the name to "Light Spear" makes no sense since Innocence will never be localized (though there is a fan-made English patch in progress; the Innocence artes lists will make note of the names that are used once the patch is released).

Whatever the case, the links should be kept. Although I prefer to maintain Japanese arte names only until the English localization is released, I don't really have a problem with replacing some of them with the current confirmed names, as long as everything remains linked. After all, the localization has already shown to have some discrepancies with past current localized names - "Focus" is apparently changed to "Fiend Fusion", which makes no sense no matter how I look at it but whatever.

Sorry for the rambling, and welcome to the Tales Wiki.

Mayu Miyuki 20:23, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Redirect links
You do not need to go through every article to edit the links to point them to the English-named articles. That is what redirect pages are for. It is easier to keep all attack names consistent with their source, maintaining Japanese names for the games that are not released in English, or keeping the localized names for any given game even though there are more recent localized terms. This is important, since if, for instance, "Sonic Spear" is to be renamed in some future localized game, and since Ricardo's "Shunjinsou" has been relinked to point to "Sonic Spear", the release of a new localized name for this attack would require you to go through this page and every other page for each character that uses this attack (Jade and Eugene), and relink them to the new name. This is more effort than it's worth, though it can be done just as easily by changing the article for "Sonic Spear" into a redirect page itself, pointing to the new article. But where is the consistency in that? Why use redirect pages if you are going out of your way to avoid them?

There are many more pages that you have not edited, that you would need to fix if you wish to maintain consistency with what you are trying to do. Whenever you get around to editing ToE - Farah Oersted: Artes, you would have to go through every attack name that has a new localized name and point every link to their current names, and when newer names are made, you would have to re-edit these pages again. When Tales of Symphonia was released (supposing this page, or even this wiki, existed back then), "Triple Blossom" would have had to be relinked manually to "Triple Kick". When Tales of Vesperia was released, we got "Cerberus Strike", and "Triple Blossom" would have required another relink to the new name. We would have to edit the pages anyway since I chose to display all the current localized names in parentheses below the Japanese romanizations for every attack, so your edits can be done at the same time during future edits, but it's not necessary to do this if redirect pages can achieve the same effect with less effort.

So I will insist that it is easier to leave everything alone and use redirect pages instead. If a redirect page does not currently exist for a given Japanese or former English attack name, please create one. Honestly, I have no problem with leaving the changes you made, but you might want to consider changing them back to their original format. If you really want to keep your changes, go ahead as long as you are willing to maintain consistency with all other similar pages. Even for past localized arte names. Have fun, and make sure you stay active long-term to make it happen, too... =P

As for the spell "Tempest" in TotT - Arria Ekberg: Artes, please keep it linked as Tempest. The page "Tempest" is a redirect to "Tempest Strike", the melee swordsman's aerial vertical spin attack. This was a decision of mine, which I never explained elsewhere, since people are so familiar with the name "Tempest" referring to this attack, that it should be used to point to the current name used in RadiMai (<-- I want to make this one a redirect link too, believe me... but only Japanese speakers use this shortened name). The article for the unrelated spell "Tempest" is differentiated by the "(spell)" appended to the page name. I know the page doesn't exist yet, but the link should be kept as a placeholder, much like my previous concern about you removing the placeholder Japanese arte name links from my previous comment. In any case, this also helps with redirects for the artes lists that involve characters that have "Tempest Strike" localized at the time as "Tempest". Unless you want to change these links too, per your most recent edits.

Also, I apologize for adding my previous comment to your user page instead of your talk page. I am moving those comments to the correct page now, so please excuse this mistake.

Mayu Miyuki 20:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

edited 20:18, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

ToS
Hey me again. I think since most of the articles on ToS and ToS2 are lacking story and plot. I think the ToS and ToS2 article need more than the dried up plot description I think we need to add the whole story line it would make the aritcles look bigger and better. Same for the character articles as you saw the example on Lloyd's page in the ToS2 section I explained the whole story of Lloyd in that game (no matter how much bad grammer was in it), but I think we should right the story for both the first and second games for all the ToS characters, and also we need to add plot into Emil and Marta's articles because let's face it the kinda look crappy without that much information on their story. So are you up to this?--Ratatosk/Zolo 21:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * By that, do you mean tht they lack the story for the whole game in the description? I agree that some characters, like Lloyd, don't tell the whole story, like characters like Annie and Eugene do. We can easily fix that. I saw that Lloyd's whole story from DotNW was written, so I just edited a little and placed some of the images other fitting places. But when it comes to the original ToS-story for Lloyd, you're right that it is lacking, unlike with Colette and some others.


 * So, I do agree that in the ToS and DotNW-articles, the plots/story may be revealed (which spoilers-warnings), but the short descriptions of the characters should remain, as there probably are reasons they have their own articles. But we can put their story in their own character article, that's right. Most of the characters need more description for the DotNW-section, anyway.


 * I can't provide much for the DotNW-parts, though, as the preorder for Europe/PAL region has been delayed to February, but I'll do as much as I can for the ToS-parts. Neither can we forget Alice, Decus and all the other new characters. Their descriptions are pretty loosy, as well.


 * I'll try to put in as much information as possible, but together with the last mock exam, I have to make the articles for some locations in ToS, as well as make the arte lists for TotW:RM. I'll try to work hard, though.
 * Penamesolen 00:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The Templates
Good job, the stub template is super awesome! :D Dhoas is good for our deletion template, now let's hope FFwiki does spike my ass for copying their templates.--Lady Pumpkin 10:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks :) I thought that yours were really original and cool, so I thought that we maybe should try to make as many as possible of our templates like that, as long as we find pictures of the character saying the things.


 * But, um. what do you mean by copying? *doesn't visit many other wikis* Penamesolen 23:13, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I mean I copied the FFwiki templates and KHwiki templates. Look.--Lady Pumpkin 02:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Character article page titles
I think it would be best to leave the article names as the character names without titles. Redirects with the character+title full names are fine, but the main articles should be like "Pronyma", "Kvar", etc., like how they would appear when you use a Magic Lens on them during battle. The same goes for "Sync", "Dist", and so on.

Their titles should be stated within the article text, like at the beginning of the first paragraph. The Japanese versions of those titles could also be noted, ie. "Legretta the Quick" vs. "Regret the Magic Bullet". The article names should just stick with the English localized name of course ("Legretta"). Besides, some of them have all sorts of titles ("Major Legretta", whatever her title was in that one book in the Daath library), so we really can't stick with one title.

And again, the Magic Lens knows all~ (lol "Traitor to Heaven"... but that goes with Kratos anyway.)

Mayu Miyuki 18:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I see. Thank you for telling me, and I'm sorry for the trouble I gave. I'll go and edit them back to how they were ^^.


 * Penamesolen 19:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help
Thanks for helping on kohaks and shing's page, let's keep up the good work :D!


 * You're welcome. And I agree, we must continue working. Just try to double-check your work and so on before saving pages, okay? By the way, you can get your signature if you put on ~ . Then your user name etc. will appear authomatically.


 * By the way, what Tales of games do you play/have played?


 * Penamesolen 19:14, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I have played Tales of Phantasia (SNES), Tales of Symphonia DotNW, TotA, Tales of Innocence, and Tales of Hearts. Planning onGetting symphonia, and if god let's me get a XBOX 360, vesperia, maybe.

Btw I uploaded some pics of Kohak in battle and her cut-in, I sukc at making galleries, would you mind putting them on kohak's page?


 * GenoWhirl24


 * I see. I'm waiting for DotNW now, but it's unknown if it will come out in Europe or not. I hope it will; stupid Nintendo of Europe never gives us the good stuff :(


 * I can do that. It would suit better if she had a section telling about her fighting style for those pictures, though. Since you have played the game, can you make one? If you need guides on how to make a section like that, just go to a ToS-character's article, and then you go down to "Fighting style". There you can see how they are made.


 * Penamesolen 19:30, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't main Kohak to be quite honest, But I will try to.

GenoWhirl24 19:33, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You don't need to use her all the time. If you manage to add the things below, I think you will be okay.


 * Tell what her weapon is, and how she uses it. If you want, come with examples of artes she uses.
 * Does she have any main element? If so, tell.
 * Does she have any combination between combat artes and magic?
 * If there is a point in the game where her fighting style changes, or where she begins to use magic/combat, tell.
 * Does her fighting style in battle changes drastically throughout the game? Like, if she goes from weak spells to strong and powerful ones?
 * What is her strongest weapon, plot and/or side-quest weapon (if there are any of the two last ones)? In ToS, the mentioned weapons were the strongest weapon, the Devil's Arm (a weapon you can get through a long side-quest; one for each party member), the gag weapon (a weapon you can buy in the fully restored Luin; one for each party member) and eventual plot weapon (weapon that has a big role in the plot).
 * If she has any "Ultimate Equipment", maybe you can add this, but this has just been written on Raine's article, so you don't have to have this one.


 * I think you'll be fine if some of these are mentioned. Thank you for doing this. Aselia really appreciate it.


 * Penamesolen 19:54, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for editing kohak's pics, Told ya I sucked at galleries XP.


 * GenoWhirl24

Addressing people
Please see the talk topic Addressing people on my talk page. Lanate (talk) 19:00, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Hey!
I'm slowly working on the locations you asked, all right!!--Link5 X 22:17, 11 February 2009 (UTC)Link5_X


 * That's good! Thank you for helping! I've finnished with Palmacosta and such, so now I'm working on Palmacosta Human Ranch. If you see something that could be changed in Palmacosta's DotNW-section, or any of the other locations' DotNW-sections, please do!


 * Penamesolen 15:54, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Arte page formats
I didn't complain because I don't care. It's not as if I enjoy repeating myself when I say that I consider all those individual arte pages to be a dead project that's not worth the effort, and that there are other more important things to work on. I would have preferred to use a very different layout than what you decided to go with, but I don't have the time or interest to make my ideas possible, again since these pages really should be ignored. And what with the release of the Touhou UFO (TH12) demo just yesterday at Reitaisai, I'm spending more time over where my fellow Touhoufags lurk, trying to understand how in the world ZUN was drunk enough to even consider having huge BROFIST/MANFIST comets as danmaku during the Stage 3 spell cards.

I should probably shut up now or I'll start spamming about a series most of you will likely never understand beyond stealing precious things and such.

Mayu Miyuki 03:17, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry that I most likely are annoying people with it, but I really think the individual pages need a little more attention. I'll probably not give them that, but I just thought that this layout was saving a lot of space and such.


 * And about the layout, if you find out what would suit better, please use it. Now that I'm using a little newer computer, I see that the layouts I've made can be longer (but on my own older computer, it says that it is already on its limits). I was wondering if I should just drop the "In-Game Description", since that is already told in the Arte Description and History-section, but I wasn't sure.


 * Don't worry, I have no clue what you mean with that game ^^.


 * Penamesolen 08:32, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Eh, No one fills in the in game description anyways, it really is like a waste of space =/, but I'd rather suggest we decide on a format before starting to edit.

--GenoWhirl24 14:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * On the subject of the arte pages. I notice on a lot of the artes artciles such as Demon Fang we added these box templates that sorta(no offense) make the wiki look extremley boring now. Whether or not this is awesome to you guys I sorta just don't like it, but it's a okay. But on the main subject about the spell artes I was wondering instead of doing what we did on the First Aid and Barrier pages we could do what FFwiki, KHwiki, etc on RPG wikis do to thier spell pages. My example of FF-> . I would look a bit more fun and excellent room for images. So what you guys say.--71.95.215.2 15:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC) a.k.a Zolo.

While I agree they looks kinda monotonous, it looks kinda more organized, on the spell note,I say we stick with FF format, that's basically what we were supposed to do in the first place, add info of the spell in each game :p, But I'm to busy working on hisui's somabuild to care right now >.>, I'll help later --GenoWhirl24 15:21, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The format for the FF page is just... ugh. If you're going to describe a spell and it's evolution throughout the series, don't make separate sections for each game. Add them together into one "description and history" section and compare them directly to each other. Again, I have a specific format in mind, and I do not like the format that Penamesolen decided to implement, but in order for me to remove it, I would have to come up with a better format of my own, something that I do not want to do because it's not worth the effort.


 * In other words, I don't like the FF format. I don't like the current format. I don't even like the format I created the pages with. So again, I'd like everyone to leave the damn pages alone and focus on something slightly more relevant like our dozens of missing pages as detailed on the List of character-specific information page.


 * Actually on second thought, I think Lanate's reformatting of the individual summon/craymel spirit pages is a decent middle ground between combining all descriptions together in a group comparison (preferred) and Zolo's hack-and-slash separation of all the games into release order. Still there is a lot to be desired, and I don't really desire much to do with these pages anymore. If anyone decides to edit those pages to follow whatever format they want, I'm not going to stop them - it's not my job to hand-walk others through making pages.


 * Mayu Miyuki 18:13, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm really, really sorry to sound stupid now, but I can't help feeling lost when I read what you've said. Okay, so we're not supposed to work on the individual pages until a format/layout is decided (which, as you said, probably never will, since you seem eager not to), and instead we're going to work on the character-specific information, like the missing lists for the unlocalized games. Those who DON'T buy unlocalized games or DON'T understand Japanese enough to sort things out or DON'T care about spending time making the lists? Nto everyone is like you guys and go all over the Internet to find information for the lists. Some may want to take it a little more easier and individual, thus the arte pages and such fit them better. I'm fine, I'll just work on the ToS locations-project, but some people maybe find it fun or okay to work on the more individual pages.


 * So, I'm sorry for this request, but I agree with you; if you have any better ideas, or think mine is so wrong (yet better than the old?), then why can't you just demonstrate your own? Think about those who WANT to fix all the artes, but can't because they're waiting for the one you (and everyone) say should be better. It would be nice if you didn't say "no this isn't good, and I have a better one but don't want to show it" and instead just showed us it. Going around with that attitude won't always help.


 * And it's strange that you tell us to leave the pages alone, yet say at the end that you don't care even though you have a "better and more specific layout in mind". Which one do you mean? Or am my English horribly leaving me now, and I've misunderstood everything that have been said?


 * Penamesolen 19:04, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Mmh, I guess I do sound like a hypocrite, don't I. But this is why I never commented in the first place - do what you want, and I won't bother you if I don't care. You seemed to be begging for someone to complain, so I merely obliged. But let me repeat - you can keep making your changes, and so can anyone else, because those pages are dead. I can hate the changes with all my passion (and I don't hate the changes... much), but it's your changes so you should go for it if you think it will really make a difference.


 * Now why don't I demonstrate my own plans? Because I have more important things to do. Is it such blasphemy to say so? I don't really care for the Tales series right now since there are other things going on in other spheres of the internets, and the Tales series seems to be in its first "quiet" period in over three years! (And thank god for that!) Now barring myself from potential ranting that would only end up with me worsening my future carpal tunnel problems, I'll provide my thoughts with a touch more neutrality.


 * Your format might be clearer than the original system, but I have to agree with Zolo that they look far to monotonous since you add headings to each column when they only have one row of content for the games that have only one character with the arte in question. That visual format should be left only for the arte lists. In fact, we don't really need tables, unless you format them similar to an infobox-style template, so that the headings would line the left side instead of the top, overall compressing the table width significantly.


 * Following through with what I said about Lanate's positioning of the voiced quotes within each game section, I believe the arte attributes should also be listed in the same area, so the reader does not have to scroll back and forth between the descriptions and the specifics of the arte itself. A "description and history" section might not be entirely necessary, but a base description must be provided in the opening paragraph to show the general basics of the arte. At the very least, I want to completely get rid of "recurring spell" or other mindless blather like that - we know it's recurring, like everything else in the series. Describe the arte or spell. Define its properties across each game. Point out any similarities and differences. Mention how they might relate to other attacks of the series, within the same family of attacks or not.


 * Now within each section for a certain game, the descriptions there should provide game-specific information, and possibly usage strategies or other tricks/specials/glitches that may be helpful to know. And of course, transcribed in-game descriptions and quotations, in both Japanese and English if possible. Include fan-translations for these things as well, as long as they are clearly labeled and cited.


 * Is that clear enough for you? I would like very much to experiment for myself how to make everything work in physical form, since I have a mental vision of how everything would look, but who are we kidding, I'm not going to waste my time trying to do that. Take your own initiatives, and don't bother me about them. I would only prefer for those pages to be left in peace, like any other foul creature of the undead, and focus on specific things that might actually require updating if this wiki is to be regarded any better than it is now. I could come up with a really stupid analogy right now involving zombies and jetpacks, but maybe that's pushing things a bit too far...


 * Mayu Miyuki 21:17, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay geesh no need to write a lot. -_- --Emil Castagnier 00:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm the one who sounds like a hypocrite. I'm sorry, I just felt confused and a little frustrated, and I didn't have much time on the computer to think everything properly through, so I had to write the first things that came to my mind. I'm really sorry.

I tried out a new methiod (if I managed to understand you right), and if you could look at it:

The problem would probably bee how to display the incantation. To have all them in one section would be meaningless, byyt I can't find a proper way to display them in this. Can someone help?

Penamesolen 08:13, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you can plain out write the incantation below the box :p

Incantation: *insert Incantation Here* But that's just a suggestion >_>

--GenoWhirl24 19:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * But all three have different incantations. Like in Fire Ball, Genis has "Get him!", Kratos has "Take this!" and Zelos doesn't have any (I think it was "Ready for this?"). If Japanese and localized incantations are provided for all of them, how will that go?


 * Penamesolen 19:55, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I dunno how it would fit into indignation though, Lol.

Again it was a suggestion, did not expect it to work >->

--GenoWhirl24 20:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

We could do the same that they did with Rita's Fire Ball; making colspans. Then the extra information could be displayed in the "Arte description and history"-section =/.

I'll try it out on an arte page with more incantation, just to see how it goes.

But yes, you're right it would be a problem with Indignation XD

...If this continues, we'll end up having one version for each arte XD

Penamesolen 20:10, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ugh what the hell, don't put incantations in the tables! Display them as part of the descriptions, the way they are done on the pages for the Summon/Craymel Spirits pages. Do the same with the game descriptions. Do NOT put them in the table boxes - they will only end up stretching the tables, even if you use colspan to expand the boxes. Why would you have a full Indignation chant squeezed into a tiny box, or any fixed-size box, for god's sake!?


 * Why are you still trying to stick to that table format anyway? I don't want this kind of format to be used, since again it looks exactly the same as the arte lists no matter how the data is positioned, which I said I don't want! Make them in the style you make the character or infobox templates, though obviously embedded into the page and not floated to the right or bottom. Do not use row/column line boundaries. Shrink the cellpadding space. Use smaller font. Change the colors perhaps, but keep it consistent within all pages that use this format.


 * Why am I still.... ugh. Do whatever you want. Even if it makes me want to gag at the kind of ideas that are being proposed. The best remedy is to see this all done and over with, but no one else wants to let that happen.


 * Mayu Miyuki 20:53, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Geez, it was just a suggestion, no need to get super grumpy about it ._.

We'll figure out a way to organize the artes pages, someday, somehow >->

--GenoWhirl24 20:56, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I worked hard on the Spirits pages! ...even if the format was half-stolen from the FF wiki and I'm not done.


 * Um, ditch the tables, but maybe...? Maybe you could do it like the Spirits pages.  I used ====This header==== for the incantation sections, but you could do more if there are more differences. Lanate (talk) 21:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)