Aselia Wiki

Some thoughts and changes

This implementation happened after my departure, but I really like the idea. I wanted to share some of my thoughts based on things I've noticed, while also making some changes to help streamline this addition. First of all, I believe any titles or works that are intended to be italicized should be done so in these templates. Second, I noticed that the "Nature" (natural phenomena) and "Languages" sub-categories were omitted and incorporated into the overall terminology, which I understand due to their limited use, but this does however make those categories seem a little strange. I think they should either be represented on the templates or simply absorbed into the overall "Terminology" category, and the latter has my vote. This will resolve the inconsistency.

I like how the pastel color scheme is still prevalent in these particular uses. The wiki has a nice, consistent aesthetic to it. Something I noticed that was changed, however, was breaking lines for a smoother appearance, which was applied in the past due to the bulleted structure we use. I'd like to hear other's opinions on this because I can't really seem to find much discussion on these changes at all. I see "Gallery" is being used on all templates due to the ones I created for certain games that had an abundance of images I didn't know where else to apply. I guess this is fine, but I'd like to clarify that it wasn't the intention I had when I created those pages. I really really really hate red links, but these pages shouldn't be difficult to create.

Lastly, what is the purpose of the "Allusions" link if Kaimi's silly little project (kidding, mostly) isn't even being applied to mainspace pages? Does a table format need to be created first? I'd like to find a direction for this because, once established, the pages will basically begin creating themselves. Final little side note, but I also noticed that there's some inconsistencies with these storytelling mechanics on the template and in the categories. For example, "Eye of Atamoni" is categorized as a term but listed on the template as technology, the latter being correct. I'll try to catch more of these little things and fix them during my sweep of the templates.

Arosia (talk) 23:15, June 3, 2020 (UTC)

Another thought I had while editing the Phantasia lore template: if an event isn't significant enough to warrant its own page, then perhaps a "Timeline" page could serve such a purpose, not unlike the timelines found on Taleslations (example). It's important to note that although we have an affiliation with them, we would need to find an original way to use the information while providing full credit. Something to consider (and discuss with them). Also, I believe Kaimi at some point suggest a list of minor characters, sorted alphabetically of course, which I'm all for as long as it adheres to the title format Lanate suggested (mirroring Wikipedia).

Arosia (talk) 23:57, June 3, 2020 (UTC)

The implementation has been a little haphazard, I'll admit. I focused on high-level things, and eventually decided to split things up further. Should additional categories be warranted, they should be easy enough to add; the impetus of having a central template like this was to both enforce standardization and make it easier to flow changes down.
As for the breaking of lines, I started moving away from that aesthetic because it causes problems with variable screen and font sizes. As we discovered on data pages, manual line breaks look extremely odd and off-putting when you start fiddling with size, as you might end up with a line that has a dangling word sandwiched by two very full lines for no reason. The advantage to having full-width templates like this is that you can ensure more consistency, as the browser will fill in that space appropriately.
I agree that a Timeline page would be a viable addition. Red links can also be masked through the use of {{#ifexist:}} though I would prefer if Allusions were created. Lanate (talk) 04:06, June 6, 2020 (UTC)

Understood on the manual line breaks. Masking "Gallery" links for pages that don't exist would probably be best because it's more of an as-needed extension rather than information the wiki is missing, which a red link implies. I would like if Allusions were created as well; these exist in every game and aren't difficult to apply. Kaimi has the information started, and with that basis, all we need is a format. Standard table layout, transfer the base information, and then expand from there over time. I could throw something together, though I'm not the best with coding.

Arosia (talk) 05:05, June 6, 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I'm hitting the limits of my ability to stay awake tonight, and would probably like to get Kaimi's input on it. Can we shelve it for tomorrow or Sunday? Lanate (talk) 05:26, June 6, 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely. Going to bed myself. Goodnight.

Arosia (talk) 05:28, June 6, 2020 (UTC)

Although the point I'm about to make applies more specifically to the location templates, I'm posting on this discussion because it's the same principle at hand. I guess it's really more of a question, and then a point. Are location descriptions available in every game? As in, a map menu feature that allows the player to navigate towns and dungeons alongside personalized descriptions of said places. In that same vein, a gallery can work for most worlds, but I'm not sure what a gallery of Derris-Kharlan would look like, for example. The only reason I'm bringing these points up is because I don't want us to set unrealistic expectations for these pages to be created when there may not be anything that warrants creation. Just some thoughts. I really do love the new navbox design.

Arosia (talk) 18:16, June 6, 2020 (UTC)

Would it make sense to make them affirmative pages then? Such as making the gallery and description parameters than can be set to something like "yes" if that exists? I double checked and it looks like descriptions are a more recent invention than I thought. It's definitely not in Phantasia and Eternia. Lanate (talk) 03:26, June 7, 2020 (UTC)
As for Allusion pages, I really like the cleanliness of the bullet-points in User:Kaimi/ToZ - Allusions. Lanate (talk) 03:28, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

I'd say definitely yes to making them affirmative pages. Doing so will relinquish false expectations for games lacking these features but won't limit the games that do have them. It also allows for galleries to be as-needed extensions that definitely aren't required, as a red link seemed a little harsh for something I threw together as a sort of bonus page.

Also, I'm not sure what that link leads to, but it's broken on my end. Regardless, I've always held an affinity for bullet points as well, particularly in instances such as this.

Arosia (talk) 03:48, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

Oh, probably this. Haha.

Arosia (talk) 03:54, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

So how would one go about creating one of these pages and have it added to the template? Will it do so automagically upon creation of the page, or would the link need to be added to the template manually? And just because I seem to be so full of questions lately (._.), how come the lore templates open everything when you click on them, but the location templates require more clicks to open each individual tab?

Arosia (talk) 05:05, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

Well, I based the bullet-point style of articles for Allusions pages on the same article type present on Final Fantasy Wiki (I started with FFWiki ca. 10 years ago, so I get a lot of influence from there) and I'm glad you enjoy my idea, Arosia. When it comes to Timeline articles I think we can do something similar with H2 headers being generally a year and then a bullet-point list of chronologically listed events; in some cases I suppose an H2 header could be a name on an era and H3 header(s) could be specific years in that era if there are a lot of events in there and they have known years. Having a check if an article exists and if it does, display a link to it in a template is a good idea IMO.—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) ∙ 10:17, June 7, 2020 (UTC)
Can I ask what you mean by one of these pages? Timeline or Allusions? And if we do so, would it be classed under the general "links" that are shared between all templates, or perhaps as something we would add to the Lore template? Lanate (talk) 17:18, June 7, 2020 (UTC)
I presume you refer to my last sentence: I just agree with Arosia on the case of "affirmative pages" (if the page exists on the Wiki, display it in the appropriate template).—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) ∙ 17:39, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

I think he was actually responding to what I said, and basically I was asking how one would go about adding a newly-created gallery or descriptions page to the respective template. Would this happen by itself or would the link need to be added to the template? As for timelines, my vote is for them being classified under lore, as they are a history of story-related events and will no doubt include ample amounts of terminology. As for allusions, I like them where they are actually because they wouldn't exactly fit neatly anywhere else, in my opinion.

Arosia (talk) 18:01, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

Okay! Basically, if you make a new gallery or description page for a world, you can add "w#_gallery=yes" or "w#_desc=yes" to a template, where # is what matches the world. For example, in Template:ToX Locations, Rieze Maxia has gallery and location description pages. It is "w1" or World 1. So I added "w1_gallery=yes" and "w1_desc=yes" parameters to make them display. If we were to have Elympios equivalents, we would add "w2_gallery=yes" and "w2_desc=yes" because Elympios is w2. Adding it like this enforces a standard naming scheme where the page names are "<World>/Gallery" and "<World>/Location Descriptions".
I am not fond of using "ifexist" if possible, because it is a tough query on databases. A limited amount, sure, but the amount of ifexist checks required to get the correct number of separators makes the effort expensive and the code arcane. Lanate (talk) 18:26, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

Okay, seems manageable. I agree that "ifexist" should be used a little as possible, and frankly I see no need to use it for anything else beyond what we already discussed for galleries and location descriptions. However, there may be some (or quite a few) games that fail to provide a detailed history of events and dates required for a respective timeline page to be created, so that may be another "ifexist" instance. Shrug.

Arosia (talk) 18:58, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

Side note, but I don't see the world galleries (the ones that exist) appearing on any of the templates.

Arosia (talk) 21:32, June 7, 2020 (UTC)